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	<title>Comments on: Creativity;  Radiohead &#38; Morality.</title>
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	<link>http://jinright.edublogs.org/2007/11/25/creativity-radiohead-morality/</link>
	<description>Songs, Yarns, Videos and Recipes about Music Production</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:06:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: NDK Creative Artist</title>
		<link>http://jinright.edublogs.org/2007/11/25/creativity-radiohead-morality/#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>NDK Creative Artist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jinright.edublogs.org/2007/11/25/creativity-radiohead-morality/#comment-23</guid>
		<description>@anonymous: Well that's a bit odd, a success you cannot promote, because of confidentiality agreements? A bit like carrying out a successful burglary, I guess. (chuckle)

If this is as successful as you say, then I don't see any reason why it can't be promoted. Where is the stuff on the site that substantiates. Would be good to provide a link. But still if it is buried, then it's not very effective. That's not evidence, btw, that's a claim of workability and I did read it. I read the whole site. I was looking for and commenting upon the fact that there is &lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;Nothing to substantiate the claims&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt;. Therefore they are just words that may or may not be true.

If there is such evidence, if there are people who have experienced this success, then that's fantastic. If there is not, then this is just more "We're the best thing since Mozart sliced bread with piano wire."

I'm genuinely interested in this and if it is good and does work as claimed, then I'd like to see some evidence and not just marketing-speak.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@anonymous: Well that&#8217;s a bit odd, a success you cannot promote, because of confidentiality agreements? A bit like carrying out a successful burglary, I guess. (chuckle)</p>
<p>If this is as successful as you say, then I don&#8217;t see any reason why it can&#8217;t be promoted. Where is the stuff on the site that substantiates. Would be good to provide a link. But still if it is buried, then it&#8217;s not very effective. That&#8217;s not evidence, btw, that&#8217;s a claim of workability and I did read it. I read the whole site. I was looking for and commenting upon the fact that there is <i><b>Nothing to substantiate the claims</b></i>. Therefore they are just words that may or may not be true.</p>
<p>If there is such evidence, if there are people who have experienced this success, then that&#8217;s fantastic. If there is not, then this is just more &#8220;We&#8217;re the best thing since Mozart sliced bread with piano wire.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m genuinely interested in this and if it is good and does work as claimed, then I&#8217;d like to see some evidence and not just marketing-speak.</p>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://jinright.edublogs.org/2007/11/25/creativity-radiohead-morality/#comment-19</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:35:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jinright.edublogs.org/2007/11/25/creativity-radiohead-morality/#comment-19</guid>
		<description>Excellent points,  and I looked at the Platinum Blue site and found this evidence that it works:

Last year, Music Xray™ predicted the success of Gnarles Barkley’s Crazy. When founding Platinum Blue’s executives were at their former company working with a similar technology called Hit Song Science the success of Norah Jones was predicted before she was on anyone’s radar. The service also helped Lee Ryan have a hit song in the summer of 2006 called Turn Your Car Around. These technologies have been used on countless other occasions. In accordance with confidentiality agreements, many of the success stories are not made public.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent points,  and I looked at the Platinum Blue site and found this evidence that it works:</p>
<p>Last year, Music Xray™ predicted the success of Gnarles Barkley’s Crazy. When founding Platinum Blue’s executives were at their former company working with a similar technology called Hit Song Science the success of Norah Jones was predicted before she was on anyone’s radar. The service also helped Lee Ryan have a hit song in the summer of 2006 called Turn Your Car Around. These technologies have been used on countless other occasions. In accordance with confidentiality agreements, many of the success stories are not made public.</p>
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		<title>By: NDK Creative Artist</title>
		<link>http://jinright.edublogs.org/2007/11/25/creativity-radiohead-morality/#comment-18</link>
		<dc:creator>NDK Creative Artist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 23:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jinright.edublogs.org/2007/11/25/creativity-radiohead-morality/#comment-18</guid>
		<description>Hey Dr. J, good article thanks for the read and the information, particularly about the corporate move to statistically analyze music. That's scary stuff on one level, as you imply, but not on others. I'm sure something useful will come out of this study, but not I think in the way the corporates may be hoping and that you mention, or allude to.

You ask, "Are musicians important and why are they still here?" Great questions. To the first I'll say, "Yes." To the second I'll say "because we love the effect of music and song on who we are and creativity is one of the most satisfying of all human experiences."

I don't think it is possible to automate creativity through software because you're talking about the ineffable and unique nature of the human spirit; that combination of intellect, emotion, personality and intuition that approaches the divine (in a spiritual sense, not a religious one).

"Music IS math" is a nice assertion, but also a rather limited pseudo-scientific  definition of what music is, created and selected as part of a marketing phrase to sell a product/service, so somewhat suspicious and limited in its viewpoint. 

"Music IS math" is not completely and only true and ignores everything else that music &lt;i&gt;actually&lt;/i&gt; is. Music IS NOT math. That's not how it is perceived by people or musicians and trying to tell them that it is as part of a means to market a service/product is kind of dumb really. I could write much better copy to sell what the service &lt;i&gt;Music XRay&lt;/i&gt; really is, given the budget and the product service to test and evaluate it. 

We don't say "Let's play math, man." We don't say "Let's go to a math concert." Or "Let's listen to math, man."

We just don't do that. Its inhuman and trying to sell an inhuman idea to humans who think and feel using something as intangible and abstract as math is not going to generate the correct emotional response that leads to a purchasing decision.

However, there is a relationship between music and mathematics, but that doesn't make music mathematics. Music is &lt;i&gt;music, a form of artistic communication that relies on mathematical relationships and functions to communicate audio signals to the human ear for an emotional experience. Music is not math. Musicians however, could be likened to intuitive practical mathematicians, who utilize the laws of physics and mathetmatics to create meaningful human communication (These are my words and they are copyright me).

As for pattern recognition...this is all well and good, but Creative Artists create patterns, not just read them. Creativity does not have limitations, it cannot have them and work hand in glove with the imagination.

The site itself indicates that "There's another factor: humans want to be entertained by humans, not machines.

Art is about human communication. Aliens maybe, soon as they have landed a gig for us to go to, let's go man! Who knows what new patterns we could pick up."

"Music Xray™ does not tell you if a song sounds like a hit. That’s an evaluation for the human ear and mind." 

Damn straight. So it's a pattern analysis.

"It also doesn’t tell you if the artist is appealing or if the label knows how to get a single into the market."

Important factors, but you know there are singers and performers who are not appealing and yet they are magnificent and extremely talented and gifted.

"It does tell you however, if the song has the "optimal mathematical patterns" to become a success, a necessary but not singly sufficient condition for having a hit."

Hmmm...it's that 'optimal mathematical patterns' bit that gets me msot. Optimal according to what? I've looked at the site and there doesn't appear to be anything to substantiate this claim. There are no charts displaying patterns and though research is alluded to and links provided to see it, you can't; the links don't work and this just leaves one feeling rather doubtful about the claims.

The way to find out if songs work is to play them to people. The way to find out if a band playing those songs has the ability to build an audience is to get the band out there in front of an audience and see if the audience responds. If they like the band and the songs they will work and this is one of the prime ways an audience is built, by getting out there in front of them and delivering a knock out performance of good songs.

 I don't see that Platinum Blue or M.I.S.,  is doing any audience response testing, and this is the crucial test.

There are no testimonials as to the success of this product/service either. So, really hard to determine if this works as stated.

This being the case, I wouldn't be too worried about it at this point.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Dr. J, good article thanks for the read and the information, particularly about the corporate move to statistically analyze music. That&#8217;s scary stuff on one level, as you imply, but not on others. I&#8217;m sure something useful will come out of this study, but not I think in the way the corporates may be hoping and that you mention, or allude to.</p>
<p>You ask, &#8220;Are musicians important and why are they still here?&#8221; Great questions. To the first I&#8217;ll say, &#8220;Yes.&#8221; To the second I&#8217;ll say &#8220;because we love the effect of music and song on who we are and creativity is one of the most satisfying of all human experiences.&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it is possible to automate creativity through software because you&#8217;re talking about the ineffable and unique nature of the human spirit; that combination of intellect, emotion, personality and intuition that approaches the divine (in a spiritual sense, not a religious one).</p>
<p>&#8220;Music IS math&#8221; is a nice assertion, but also a rather limited pseudo-scientific  definition of what music is, created and selected as part of a marketing phrase to sell a product/service, so somewhat suspicious and limited in its viewpoint. </p>
<p>&#8220;Music IS math&#8221; is not completely and only true and ignores everything else that music <i>actually</i> is. Music IS NOT math. That&#8217;s not how it is perceived by people or musicians and trying to tell them that it is as part of a means to market a service/product is kind of dumb really. I could write much better copy to sell what the service <i>Music XRay</i> really is, given the budget and the product service to test and evaluate it. </p>
<p>We don&#8217;t say &#8220;Let&#8217;s play math, man.&#8221; We don&#8217;t say &#8220;Let&#8217;s go to a math concert.&#8221; Or &#8220;Let&#8217;s listen to math, man.&#8221;</p>
<p>We just don&#8217;t do that. Its inhuman and trying to sell an inhuman idea to humans who think and feel using something as intangible and abstract as math is not going to generate the correct emotional response that leads to a purchasing decision.</p>
<p>However, there is a relationship between music and mathematics, but that doesn&#8217;t make music mathematics. Music is <i>music, a form of artistic communication that relies on mathematical relationships and functions to communicate audio signals to the human ear for an emotional experience. Music is not math. Musicians however, could be likened to intuitive practical mathematicians, who utilize the laws of physics and mathetmatics to create meaningful human communication (These are my words and they are copyright me).</p>
<p>As for pattern recognition&#8230;this is all well and good, but Creative Artists create patterns, not just read them. Creativity does not have limitations, it cannot have them and work hand in glove with the imagination.</p>
<p>The site itself indicates that &#8220;There&#8217;s another factor: humans want to be entertained by humans, not machines.</p>
<p>Art is about human communication. Aliens maybe, soon as they have landed a gig for us to go to, let&#8217;s go man! Who knows what new patterns we could pick up.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Music Xray™ does not tell you if a song sounds like a hit. That’s an evaluation for the human ear and mind.&#8221; </p>
<p>Damn straight. So it&#8217;s a pattern analysis.</p>
<p>&#8220;It also doesn’t tell you if the artist is appealing or if the label knows how to get a single into the market.&#8221;</p>
<p>Important factors, but you know there are singers and performers who are not appealing and yet they are magnificent and extremely talented and gifted.</p>
<p>&#8220;It does tell you however, if the song has the &#8220;optimal mathematical patterns&#8221; to become a success, a necessary but not singly sufficient condition for having a hit.&#8221;</p>
<p>Hmmm&#8230;it&#8217;s that &#8216;optimal mathematical patterns&#8217; bit that gets me msot. Optimal according to what? I&#8217;ve looked at the site and there doesn&#8217;t appear to be anything to substantiate this claim. There are no charts displaying patterns and though research is alluded to and links provided to see it, you can&#8217;t; the links don&#8217;t work and this just leaves one feeling rather doubtful about the claims.</p>
<p>The way to find out if songs work is to play them to people. The way to find out if a band playing those songs has the ability to build an audience is to get the band out there in front of an audience and see if the audience responds. If they like the band and the songs they will work and this is one of the prime ways an audience is built, by getting out there in front of them and delivering a knock out performance of good songs.</p>
<p> I don&#8217;t see that Platinum Blue or M.I.S.,  is doing any audience response testing, and this is the crucial test.</p>
<p>There are no testimonials as to the success of this product/service either. So, really hard to determine if this works as stated.</p>
<p>This being the case, I wouldn&#8217;t be too worried about it at this point.</i></p>
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